a new jobs report and the first presidential debate shakeup the race for the white house. ♪ >> chris: unemployment drops below 8% for the first time in 44 months, both sides say romney wins debate one. with 30 days until the election, we'll discuss where the campaign stands now with republican senator kelly ayotte and democratic governor mark o'malley and, a debate guru explains the dos and don'ts. when 67 million people are watching.

we'll ask brett o'donnell to review what obama and romney did in the first debate and what they should do better, next time. plus, this week's face off between the vice presidential candidates. we'll ask our sunday panel the handicap, biden versus ryan. and with the campaigns in post-debate spin cycle, we go on the trail. all, right now, on fox news sunday. ♪ >> chris: and, hello, again, from fox news in washington. big changes in the presidential race, this week. the romney campaign was reenergized by the governor' strong performance in the first debate, but president obama got a big boost with a new jobs report, that showed a sharp drop in the unemployment rate. we're going to have our own debate today, between democratic governor mark o'malley of maryland and republican senator kelly ayotte of new hampshire, welcome to fox news sunday. >> good to be with you, chris. >> chris: let's start with the

jobs numbers that came out friday, the unemployment rate dropped to 7.8%, the lowest since president obama took office and the government said 114,000 jobs were added but in a household survey, 873,000 more americans reported having jobs. senator ayotte, isn't the economy getting better? well, i think, what is disappointing about the report is the down tick we saw in unemployment is because of part-time work, for economic reasons, so people who want full-time jobs, taking lower pay, you can't support a family on part-time work. and of course we still have the sad fact that we have the lowest labor participatings rate since 1981, and if the number of people who were working or participating in the workforce were the same as when the president came into office the unemployment rate would really be 11%, so, i don't think there is any cause to celebrate, here and i think if you told the american people four years ago, that the unemployment rate is going to be 7.8%, at this point,

during the president's term, i don't think anyone should be satisfied or happy with that. >> chris: governor, are you satisfied for happy. >> i don't think any of us should be happy, we want to return to full employment. and, what we have seen now is 31 months in a row, consecutive months in a row of private sector job gains. so, it is far better to be gaining jobs than losing 800,000 a month. as we were when george bush was in office. we still have a long way to go, but we are moving in the right direction. unemployment, now, has been driven down to a 44-month low and is lower now than it was in the last month of george bush's presidency, the last four months and we'd have seen home foreclosures driven down to their lowest levels, in five years. so, they are lower now than when president obama took office. so it is all about middle class security and security in your home, security in your jobs and we are making progress. >> chris: but governor, at 7.8%, what it is as of friday, no

president has been reelected with unemployment this high since fdr back in 1940. no president has been elected with growth this low. it is now 1.3%, for the second quarter. with growth this low, since they started measuring gdp growth in 1930. by historical standards, this is still a very weak recovery. >> without a doubt. we still have a long way to go and speaking of fdr, no president since him was left bigger job losses, bigger unemployment and bigger deficits and more wars than president obama, was, by the failed policies of george w. bush. which resulted in directly, the greatest job losses since fdr. this is not easy and it is hard work but we are moving forward. >> let's talk about policies. we didn't hear in the hour and 25 minutes of debate anything about the stimulus package. if you look at the policy the trickle-down government policy as the governor described it, they represented below 6% unemployment now, after spending

all of that money and had full charge of the first two years and the policies that this president put into place, actually made it worse. including the fact that obamacare is actually... employers, it is causing them not to hire and gas prices doubled and the middle class is buried under this administration and the vice president said it aptly and it is true. >> chris: let's turn to a couple of issues that came up in the debate. obviously the jobs report came out after the debate. both sides said the other candidate is lying about his position and let's start with taxes. governor, the president keeps saying that mitt romney is proposing a $5 trillion tax cut. that is not true. >> well, chris, wait a minute here. the governor -- former governor romney is proposing a 20% cut to income taxes, including income taxes for the wealthiest of americans.

and, i believe a 30% cut for corporate income taxes, including big all, socking all of us at the pump, right now and any economist may debate whether it adds up to $4.9 trillion or $5 trillion and the fact of the matter. >> clayton: in this debate we saw big bird meet the big lie. those tax cuts, there are costs to those tax cuts, the biggest driver to our deficit... >> chris: if i may, sir, you are talking about half the planet like talking about obama's jobs plan, the entire plan is to give more money to teachers and, that is not obama's plans and similarly you are mischaracterizing the romney plan, saying, it is -- you are right, $5 trillion by lowering the tax rate but he talks about cutting loopholes... >> oh, chris, which loopholes and which deductions? senator, i doubt seriously you would be in favor of doing away or cutting the home mortgage

deduction, for middle class americans. i mean, governor romney has not said what the secret plan is for these $5 trillion in tax cuts like he will not talk about what his tax returns have been or how much money -- >> with all dull due respect, governor, mitt romney made it clear in the debate and spoke directly to the american people he will not lower the burden on upper income individuals, we know, chris, upper income individuals rely more heavily on deduction and he'll give the relief to the middle class and it will be deficit neutral and, of course one of the best lines of the debate, you can -- i have a sons and you can tell the story, i'm used to hearing the story five times and having me believe it to be true and it's not true what they are saying about his tax plan. let's talk about the president's vision. >> what are the deductions... >> chris: let's finish that and

then we'll talk about that. part of the problem, i have asked romney and ryan repeatedly, i asked ryan on this show, last sunday, i don't agree with you it is a $5 trillion tax cut but, i said where do you make up the $5 trillion for lowering tax rates in terms of the deductions and, the loopholes, how do you make it up and, he refused to tell us, and, independent experts say even if you took away all the deductions it will not add up to $5 trillion. >> the governor said in debate he understands he has to work with both sides of the aisle. we know, right now, that for example, in the house, dave camp is working on the issue of lowering, simplifying and max baucus in the senate had discussions and he said, listen i'll work with members of both sides of the aisle. it is looking at a simpson-bowles-type law and this is not new and we know it can be done and if you go back to when it was last done, simplifying the tax code, that was of course... >> chris: simpson-bowles were a lot more specific about lowering

the rates and... >> he said he'll work across the aisle unlike the president when he pushed through the health care bill on a partisan base, he'll listen to both sides of the aisle and make sure, three principles stay clear. that he is going to give relief to the middle class, and he's going to make sure that we're more competitive, of course, creating jobs, because so many small businesses, file as individuals, and higher income individuals will not pay less and it will not impact the deficit. >> chris: you were about to talk about the president's vision. >> one thing is the president's vision for or country, the best way to put forward a vision is the budget. and he talked about, at the debate, his so-called $4 trillion plan to reduce the debt. but, what that really is, is this budget, the budget that he puts forth, one of the most shocking things about the lack of leadership in washington, from this president, is that in three years, not one member of either party would vote for his vision, his budget. why? it is the worst of both words, a massive tax increase that hurts jobs creators, and provincial us

to $25 trillion in debt and that is the vision. one thing that came out of the debate is, here we are, we'll have more of the same, more taxing, regulations, and debt, and economic stagnation. >> chris: let me ask you about the president's budget, governor, because, one thing he counts a trillion dollars, that was already part of the debt deal last august. it is not a new proposal, it is old savings, that both sides agreed to in august, and, he also takes almost a trillion dollars in budget savings, spending savings, from the wars that we weren't going to fight anyway and we were borrowing money for. you are not saving money or reducing the budget, you are saying we'll count as savings the wars we were never going to fight in the first place. >> i think there is actually -- actually two different numbers, you have to look at. you have to look at the operational budget, but you have to look at the structural deficit. when president obama took office he was left a $10 trillion

deficit, by his predecessor, who squandered our surplus, into a huge deficit. so, in paying the deficit down, you should score the fact that we are coming out of iraq and afghanistan. and, the other thing that the president has proposed and understands, is, that we cannot cut our way to prosperity. we need a balanced approach. and, growing our economy, by doing things like the senator does, like restructuring the auto industry, in order to put people back to work, and make manufacturing jobs grow, is one of the actions that we need to take, in order to do that. but, the fact of the matter is, the president because he has the responsibility of office, has been specific about what he proposes and mitt romney tells us, to trust him, with his plan, it is hiding behind door number 3, with carol merrill and his undisclosed tax returns. >> you know... really, the lines are great, but, chris, the bottom line is this: his budget, tax increase on i don't believe creators, budget

gimmicks, and, brings us to $25 trillion in debt over ten years. in fact, this president has added more debt than any other president. >> not true. >> he said he'd cut the deficit in half... >> well, senator... senator. >> four years of trillion dollar deficit. >> you know, you are in the united states. >> it is not true he said he'd -- >> $10 trillion is what he inherited and you should know the deficit is now 15 or $16 trillion, and it's not true, when -- you say it and you repeated it. >> he has added more debt than any other president. >> that is not true. >> any other president. >> no, it is not true. >> chris: let me just -- >> president bush left him with a $10 trillion deficit. >> 4.7 -- >> i said idle be tougher than jim lehrer and i'm going to be. what didn't come up in the debate is the fiscal cliff of tax increases come at the end of the year, sequestration as it is called, unless the president and congress work out a deal. under what is

act, employers, this is not just federal employers, all companies, must tell workers, 60 days in advance, over mass layoffs, but ten days ago, the obama administration told companies with federal contracts to ignore the law, don't notifier workers of these coming layoffs, as part of the fiscal cliff, sequestration, and, it would pick up the legal costs from any losses. senator ayotte, what is wrong with that. >> it is quite shocking, chris, but it is another example of this administration ignoring or skirting the law, to help the president's re-election chances. because, here's where we are. sequestration is going to be the law in january, if we haven't seen the leadership on the president on this, and, he is worried because the companies know they'll have to lay people off and they've told congress this and, omb comes out with an opinion saying you don't have to comply with the law and the forst par worst part is taxpayers are on the hook for the litigation

costs when the worker don't receive the warnings they are supposed to. >> chris: governor, why is that right? >> chris i have a lot of moms and dads who work in places like northrup grummon and lockheed martin and i refuse believe, once the election is passed that members of congress will not come together, to find a way to put a greater priority on our nation's defense than we do on defending gobs of tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires. the senator, herself, i think voted against the sequestration move. paul ryan voted for it. i do believe. it is an irresponsible path, and, i'm confident that after this election, this we'll find a way to reprioritize... >> chris: if you are so concerned about the middle class, why not let these workers know they may be laid off? >> chris, none of those employers wanted to send out those warn notices. why would you do that, when... >> >> chris: obviously the law was passed, they didn't want the employers to decide, they wanted to force them to notify their

workers. >> to cause that sort of disruption about something that, all of us as americans, trust, and believe that our congress will be able to work out... >> chris: why would you believe co anything. >> well, chris, because the devastation to the economy would be so great. look i oftentimes disagree with my counterpart, bob mcdonald of virginia but we share a region of science and security and jobs depend on our ability to put a greater priority on our nation's defense and a balanced budget than more tax cuts for millionaires and bill -- billionaires. >> bob woodward's book said it was the president's idea on sequestration, what is ironic, when the president was in the senator he and hillary clinton introduced a bill to allow workers to have greater notice and now doesn't want to comply with the law because the notices fall before the election and here's the most disturbing fact. what sequestration does to our national security and this president has not shown

leadership, and i'm deeply concerned. he should be leading the effort now in congress to resolve this. >> chris: we have less than a minute left and i'd like you to share it equally. early indications, after the debate, that romney got some kind of bump in the polls, i would ask you both, briefly, 30 seconds, each, governor, where does the race stand now. >> i think we have three more debates coming up, one of which is the vice presidential campaign. where paul ryan has been very specific about what he'd do in a budget, and that is the budget that would be bad for our economy, and bad for job growth, and, it would increase taxes on 18 million people, and, so, we have a few more rounds to go, on the fight where we saw, the first one was an energized performance, big bird meets the big lies and now governor romney will be challenged for the remaining 30 days to explain how it is he pays for $5 trillion en cuts and tax cuts for millionaires and with billionaires, without us suffering the... >> chris: senator. >> the debate was a reset of the

campaign and gave an opportunity for the american people, first of all, to deburning the myths created by the obama campaign, through false advertising about governor romney, and we saw the mitt romney that i know and those who have work with him and the american people got to see that, which is someone who is a proven effective leader with a vision how to turn around the economy and a path forward to address the debt. unlike this president, we heard more of the same, america can't afford more of the same. >> chris: senator ayotte, governor o'malley, thank you both for coming in, who was the person behind door number 3. >> carol merrill, do you remember that. >> chris: let's make a deal... carol merrill was behind door number 3. >> governor romney is hiding his plans... >> chris: i got that part of it. i mostly remember people dressed up like lobsters. thank you... thank you. up next, a debate observer tells us what romney did right and wrong this week and how they need to rethink their strategy. ♪

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nation's best political debate coach. he prepped george w. bush in 2004. john mccain in 2008. and, michelle bachmann and mitt romney in this campaign, we

asked brett o'donnell to join us, to tell us you how the candidates need to recalibrate for the next debate. what happened to president obama? why did he do so poorly? obviously you were not in the room. best guess, what do you think his debate team failed to do, to prepare him for wednesday night? >> well, think, you know, there are three areas, chris, where you have to prepare a candidate. the first is they have to know the issues and have no know policy on both sides. i think president obama is fine in that area but the last two areas, i think, his team may have failed, the second is, you have to have a strategy, going into the debate, to execute. and, the final thing is, you have to be mentally prepared. i don't think the president was mentally prepared to take on governor romney and i certainly thing that he was in shock when governor romney went on offense, and stayed on offense, throughout the debate. and put the president on his heels and the president's worst moments are when he's on defense

and that is where he spent most of the night. >> chris: all right, we asked you to pick some moments where you felt the candidates did something particularly good or particularly bad. and we're going to start with your good moment for romney, here it is. >> my plan has five basic parts. one, give us internally independence, north american energy independence, which creates 4 million jobs... >> chris: and he went on, to list the others -- what is this point, get out the basic program right from start. >> from the very beginning governor romney cast a vision for the debate. you know, folks accused him of not being specific, the president was on him about specifics and from the very beginning, governor romney offered a vision of two different paths. the path the president has us on and the path that he would put us on and he talked about it specifically, he gave us five things that his plan would do and in a debate, that is a good amount of detail for the audience to catch onto, so he

set in motion a frame for the debate, which allowed him to really cast vision in the debate which the president did not do. >> chris: all right, but for all of your criticism you say the president had good moments, too. here's your pick for that. >> president barack obama: for 18 months he has been running on this tax plan and now, five weeks before the election, he's saying his big bold idea is, never mind. >> chris: what is strong about that? >> well, you know, it takes the big issue of taxes that they had gone back and forth about for several minutes, in the first opening block, and, it capsu capsulized the president's argument in one sentence and it creates a moment that the press can catch onto, a sound bite the press can replay and the audience can grab onto and it was the president's best line of the night. beyond that, he was very much on defense, the entire night. >> chris: now, you say that both candidates, both candidates,

also stumbled during the debate, and this one, i have to say i didn't need your help on, a mistake obama made repeatedly during the debate. >> you put $90 billion into green jobs. and, i -- look i'm in favor of green energy, $90 billion. that would have hired 2 million teachers. >> chris: and we saw that throughout the debate. and mr. obama kept looking down, while romney was making points, or criticizing him or attacking him. but, i have to think that is debate 101, that you would tell your candidate, always assume you you are on camera and that, you know, looking at you, even if the other guy is speaking? >> you know, it is funny, though, chris, debate history, presidential debate history is replete with examples of where candidates don't pay attention to how they look, and how they say things, and are only worried about what they say. but, audiences tell us that they take as much as 65% of their

meaning from how candidates -- how people say things. you know, so you have the famous george bush looking at his watch, or al gore, sighing in the debate, and this time around, we have the president, who seems to be disinterested. who seems to be irritated and not focused on the debate. >> chris: what do you tell a candidate to do when the other guy is speaking? or even attacking? >> well, you know, certainly, you can take notes, you can look out at the audience but every now and then you need to look at your point. it is kind of odd, if you -- if a person is talking directly to you, like governor romney was, during most of the debate, and, you don't look at them. it is almost -- it is -- could be considered rude or disinterested. irritated and it certainly sent the wrong message and at times, you notice the president is either looking to his left when the podium is canted to the

right and, it sends the message, i want to get out of here as soon as possible. >> chris: you said romney through all of his good points stumbled, too and one was when he was talking about reforming social security and medicare, entitlement. let's look. >> 60, around 60 or older you don't need to listen any further but for younger people we need to talk about what changes will be occurring. >> chris: i was surprised by this. what did he do wrong there? >> well, i don't necessarily think -- you know, it is degrees of weakness and i think governor romney had a strong night but in this section, on entitlements, he didn't necessarily look the best, and, it seemed to be the moment where he wasn't as sure of himself in the arguments as he was throughout the rest of the debate. he was very strong on tax policy, he was strong on on his economic policy, and, he used the $90 billion figure to great advantage, twice, he used it, against the president, on energy policy, and he used it against him on education policy.

but, during the section on entitlements, he didn't necessarily seem to be at his strongest. but... certainly much stronger than the president. >> chris: i want to ask you about a moment you didn't bring up, that has gotten a lot of attention, let's take a look at this one. >> i'm sorry, jim, i'm going to stop the subsidy to pbs and stop other things. i like pbs and i love big bird and i like you, too but i will not keep spending money on things to borrow money from china to pay for it. >> chris: now was that smart, as a way to show that he is serious about cutting spending or always a mistake to take on big bird? >> well, you know, big bird is pretty popular but, you know, maybe the president would say big bird didn't build his own nest, i don't know. but, you know, i think that it is -- you know, it probably, you know, maybe not going after big bird, but, certainly, pbs, and, public broadcasting is popular in terms of taking them on in the spending, you know, on the

spending side. i don't think he was going down the wrong path, maybe not with big bird. >> chris: a couple of minutes left. i want to look forward. what do you expect from this week's vice presidential debate between joe biden and paul ryan in. >> well, i am sure that vice president biden got a phone call from the white house, and said, you know, look, we didn't go after governor romney as much and you have to turn up the heat. because, you know, the debates are about controlling the ground. whoever is viewed as the one who controls the debate, who is on the offense and i don't necessarily mean attacking your opponent, governor romney didn't attack the president the entire night. governor romney stayed on his message, and, whoever stays on message is going to be viewed as the victor and so i'm sure that vice president biden has been coached to get back on message and to go after paul ryan, now, how much he can do that, we'll see.

and, you know, i'm sure that congressman ryan has been preparing on the policy side and preparing mentally for this and it is the first time he'll have been on the stage and, you know, i think both men will be prepared. >> chris: briefly looking ahead to the next presidential debate on october 16th, nine days from now, you have to know that obama is going to be much more aggressive to show it was a bad night. if you are his coach, briefly, what do you tell obama to do, and, if you are romney's coach how do you tell him to prepare for a much more aggressive president? >> yeah, if you are the president you've got to get on offense. you have to use the things that have been successful to this point for them in the campaign. it was shocking that he didn't go into the 47% remark or bain capital or other things that he has been using which seem to have given him a perceptive advantage coming into the debate. he has to get on offense and more importantly, he has to offer a vision. i mean, the president had no vision for the future, in terms

of what he would do and where he'd take the country. and, governor romney's vision was really clear, if you are governor romney, you have to stay on message, and, keep pressing on offense, i mean, that work for him -- worked for him in the debate but he has to be ready for a different president obama. the risk is, like al gore, back in 2000, if the president changes his persona too much, folks will report, well, a different president showed up and that hurt al gore in the 2000 debates and the president really has a problem on his hands, in terms of how he approaches the next debate. >> chris: have to leave it there, thank you so much for coming in and sharing some of the tricks of your trade and we'll see thursday in biden and ryan were listening. >> thanks, good to be with you. >> chris: up next, with 30 days until the election, we'll ask our sunday group whether governor romney's debate win or the drop in the unemployment rate will have a bigger impact on the race for president. ♪ n control.

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>> president barack obama: my opponent is doing a lot of... well, tap dance. at the debate, the other night. trying to wiggle out of stuff he has been saying for a year. >> you her his answers, and, i think as a result of those,

those answers, the american people recognize that he and i stand for something very different. >> chris: governor romney, and president obama still arguing, late this week about who won their first debate. and it is time now for our sunday group. brit hume, fox news senior political analyst. mara liasson of national public radio, criminal berkimberley st we showed a sharp drop from 8.1 positive to 7.8%, brit, how big a boost for the president and how big a set back for romney. >> it improves the talking point the president has, it is now, you know, below 8%, 8% has bone thrown into space for some time and i don't know how people make up their minds on the economy based on the unemployment number. i think they make up their minds on the economy based on what they see around them and feel in their own life and what the people they know and, or are

related to, are telling them about their experience in the job market and so on. and, given the fact that left intact, in this job report is the overall employment and underemployment rate which is up to 14.7%, and unchanged, very bad number indeed, i think that reflects what people see around them and i don't think that this helps the president, very much. >> chris: mara, 7.8%, do you think that changes people's perception that, well, maybe the economy is getting better. >> i think it can. but, i agree with brit. it has to do with how people are feeling about their own situation. we have seen consumer confidence getting better. and i would say, one of the reasons that the president had been doing a little bit better, recently, and, so the debate, was because, not only did he have a good convention and the republicans didn't have a great one, but, also because people are paying down their debt. more people are feeling confident about the future, consumer spending is going up. there has been a little bit of an uptick in the way people feel

about the economy, a little more optimistic. now, whether one month of jobs data is going to make a huge difference, i doubt it. >> chris: kim, obviously, there was another piece of big news, and that was the debate. which do you think has more resonance with voters, the new jobs numbers or what they watched on their tv, wednesday night? >> 70 million people watched the debate and got to see these candidates unkrcensored and, people said mitt romney won the debate and he did two things, talking about broad economic con sement september and here's the -- concepts and here's the way to reduce the deficit and, options when it comes to raising taxes and not raising taxes and laid out his policies and connected them to the voters he was trying to talk to and that is why he got the win on tuesday. >> chris: kirsten. >> the debate is by far the most important and the jobs numbers to a certain extent were baked in all ready, and, the drop, while significant, isn't -- not like a drop to 5%, or something,

we still have a high unemployment number. it has given the president something positive, to say about the economy, he has already worked it into his stump speech, we're now at the lowest point since he came into office, so, that definitely is a positive thing and overcoming what happened in that debate, is a much bigger problem, for him. >> chris: there is not much disagreement, really, in a town where everybody disagrees about everything, not much disagreement that romney won the debate. look at the latest cover of "newsweek," rather, of "the new yorker," which is just out. and, it shows romney debating an empty chair, much as clint eastwood did at the republican convention. but the obama camp, is an overdrive trying to undercut romney's victory, basically, saying he lied about his position. how is that working. >> i don't think that is working very well and what i would say, about this, is that this idea that romney won the debate, because obama basically didn't show up, i don't by that. barack obama, i heard, on that

debate stage, was the barack obama i have been listening to now for four years. he sounded very much like himself. i don't think he was terribly bad. i think he has a very weak case and i think the circumstances in the country present the challenging candidate with all kinds of opportunities. mitt romney was on his game and took advantage of those opportunities. the president is saddled with weak circumstances and therefore a weak case and it's not surprising to me that he didn't argue it very well and the other thing is, despite the -- his reputation as being a world cass orator, and maybe he is with' set speech but there is not a lot of evidence he was a great debater and put them together an i don't think it is as big a shock as the president's supporters on the left feel. i think they thought he was ten feet tall and he's not ten feet tall and never has been. >> chris: mara, about the specific issue of -- doing fact checking of romney and continue to press. i don't think it is accurate, the $5 trillion tax cut, they

talk about, well in fact the place will cut pel grants and aid to students, is that a way to go at it? to say, well, he's misrepresenting who he is? >> i think that that is pretty much all they have coming out of the debate. i mean, romney did something pretty extraordinary and basically liberated himself from the modern republican party and felt bound to it, during the primaries and the convention, but presented him search as a moderate, appealing, business man, he's not going to raise taxes on the middle class and doesn't have a $5 trillion tax cut, and, i think that that was a huge, huge accomplishment. he didn't look like he was disconnected from ordinary people, and now, i think the difficulty for the president, i think it is a reasonable thing to try to do but the next debate is a town hall format and it will be hard to attack somebody in front of a bunch of people -- >> i want to pick up on what mara mentioned. the "wall street journal" had a big article about it this weekend. the idea that romney is pivoting from the right to the center. on issues like his tax cuts, on

immigration, on bipartisanship. do you see him sovereigning the conservative positions. >> well it has been driven by the presidency and i don't think if you asked a single conservative among the 70 million who are watching him and were absolutely, very excited by his proponents, they feel they have... what he has done is explain them better and -- >> chris: this tax cut is not a tax cut anymore, and, on immigration, he's not going to end the waivers, for the -- young people? >> a lot of this is, the press pivoting off of what barack obama has described his plan to be. mitt romney has been fairly consistent about what he plans to do. he went out there and said it, more clearly, to everyone, on tuesday night. and, it actually puts the obama team in a difficult position, it was the heart of their strategy was to paint him as this outrageous guy with failed ideas. that has not worked now. and, so what do they do? they can't do a big change of

themselves, and can't go out an propose their own big ideas. and the other problem is, now they are going to get down and dirty and claim he's a big liar and he's a flip-flopper and cannot be trusted. and if the president goes -- that's why he didn't do that in the first debate, because president obama, a big part on the election bid is on looking likable and now has to go out in a second debate and take the gloves off. >> chris: briefly, kirsten, someone said to me, the problem with debates is all romney had to do was change the way people perceive him which is easier than change your record and that is obama's problem. >> right. but because he was painted as being something so outrageous, this person who is a flip-flopper and doesn't know what he stands for and the plutocrat and it was easy to show up and not be that person and i think, that, yes, obama has a difficult record, but, actually i have to disagree with brit in the sense that i think obama did do spectacularly bad. i don't think it was just -- i

don't think... i see him as ten feet tall but looking at him i felt this is a person, not engaged and seemed like he different want to be there and couldn't do the basic threshold, i'm at a debate an act like i care. >> chris: a lot of stuff left on the table, 47%... >> yes, they had a bad strategy and went into play it safe and he played it too safe. he didn't -- their attitude was, we're going to -- don't benefit from a fight with romney. >> chris: well, he didn't have a fight with romney. we have to take a break, when we come back, round 2, biden-ryan. stay tuned. and every day since, we've worked hard to keep it. bp has paid over twenty-three billion dollars to help people and businesses who were affected, and to cover cleanup costs. today, the beaches and gulf are open for everyone to enjoy -- and many areas are reporting their best tourism seasons in years. we've shared what we've learned with governments and across the industry so we can all produce energy more safely.

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us bank. >> chris: check out foxnewssunday.com for behind-the-scenes features, and our special monday preview of the week ahead. you can find it at foxnewssunday.com and be sure and let us know dan hurd: when i was a child, california was a leader in education funding. erika derry: and the fact that california isn't making it a priority frustrates me. dan hurd: i'm ashamed of that, and i don't want this to continue for my daughter. brenda kealing: prop 38 is going to bring a lot of money to our schools. suzan solomon: the money stays at the school site. cade derry: what i would really like to see is that the teachers... that were laid off come back to the school.

navaz hurd: a smaller class size. navaz hurd: as a mom i want that. as a teacher i want that. prop 38 is an opportunity of a generation. >> the thing about congressman ryan is, he's straightforward, he has been straightforward up to now about all the significant changes he wants to make. >> he's fast on the cuff, he's a witty guy, he knows who he is and he has been doing it for 40 years, so you are not going to rattle joe biden. >> chris: vice president biden and congressman paul ryan, both trying to set expectations ahead of their debate, on thursday. and we're back now with the panel. well, i don't know how important it is, in terms of who is going

to actually win, we'll deal with that in a few minutes but i have to say, i am really looking forward to this ryan-biden debate. on the one hand, you've got an old-school liberal, on the other hand, you have a young gun conservative. i think it is going to be a real culture clash. kim, what do you expect? >> i think what you said, what joe biden has going for him, when barack obama went into his debate, expectations were huge that he was going to mop the floor with romney and as it happens he didn't have a good night an joe biden does not have a high expectation problem, okay? people think of people as the gaffe guy. and, i think that underestimates him. he's good. what paul ryan said is true, he has been doing it 40 years and he'll be on message and he has something else, too. barack obama felt constrained, i think, to go after mitt romney with some ofhese lines, 47% an bain capital and he was going to look presidential an joe biden doesn't have the problem and he'll throw everything in the kitchen sink at paul ryan and paul ryan's jobs has to be not only to meet that and turn it

but, also consider -- continue to do the positive message that romney did in his debate. >> chris: you know, kirsten there is a perception that joe biden is a loose canon and a gaffe machine and i specifically asked paul ryan about that last week and he said, not in these highly visible, highly structured events, he's disciplined and doesn't make mistakes and obviously has been study jiing all of his debates, what do you expect from the vice president. >> remember, a lot of his gaffes, a, aren't covered by the media, and, b are often humorous and, not damaging in the sense that he is changing policy or, you know, putting something out there, that is going to box the president in with the exception of gay marriage, of course that would be a gaffe that caused problems for the president and i expect him to do a good job, and what i expect him mostly to do is try to wrap paul ryan's plans around mitt romney's neck, so he has said, i have been spending a lot of time studying paul ryan's position. and, he wants to basically...

>> chris: there are differences between what ryan is proposing and... >> you need to focus on those differences i think and try to say, you know, this is what your plans are, and, why are they different from romneys... >> chris: or say, hey, that is just -- what you really believe. >> exactly. >> chris: biden was in full roar this week, brit, when it came to raising taxes. let's look at what he had to say: >> we're going to ask the wealthy to pay more. my heart breaks. [applause]. >> man... you know, the phrase you always use, obama and biden, want to raise taxes, by $8 trillion. guess what? yes, we do, in one regard. we want to let that trillion-dollar tax cut expire, so the middle class doesn't have to bear the burden of all of that money, going to the super-wealthy. [applause].

>> chris: does that help or hurt the president? >> i don't know. look, i think there's an interesting strategic decision that ups to be made by team obama, for this debate. if biden spends his time attacking paul ryan's plan, ryan will make it clear that that is not the plan they are running on and if he spends a lot of his time attacking paul ryan, and have a great night doing that, it won't make any difference. what i think biden has to consider doing, is using his time to attack mitt romney, to take him down a peg, after his performance in the first debate. that is the most urgent need it seems to me the obama campaign has, is to undo some of what mitt romney... >> chris: and where would you suggest that he go after romney? >> who knows? i mean, you know, i'm not sure romney is as vulnerable as the obama team think but, presumably you hit him on the 47%, and, you know, hit him on flip-flops and so on and, you know, you would take all of these things, that the obama camp has now noted,

quote, lies, and try to make some hay out of them. that is my guess what he'd do and ryan would have to spend time defending and, so on. i don't think that debate will make all that much difference but, it will be interesting to see which way it goes, whether he goes after ryan or romney. >> that is the thing to do, vice presidential debates usually don't matter but there is a further difficulty now for biden. up until now there has not been any romney-ism, he's part of the republicans and, he looked effective and righted his campaign in the debate and it will be harder to paint him as kind of a -- a hand-made... >> chris: the question of ryan and his vulnerability. ryan, obviously over the years has taken positions, on budget

cuts, this romney has moved away from, for instance, ryan had the $716 billion cut in medicare. which romney disavowed. how vulnerable is ryan and, you know, and the argument which i suspect will be made, hey, if you want to know what romney is really going to be like, look at what paul ryan has been proposing. >> look, i don't. because i agree with brit, i think he fundamentally says, look it's not my plan, i'm running with romney and one thing that paul ryan has done, remarkably well and has gotten better at since he was picked is, internalizing romney's plans and explaining them, just as well as he used to explain some of his old -- his positions. the way he ran. and, i think the other problem, too, that the barack obama campaign has in doing this, is, they've got to make a decision. will they paint romney and ryan as extremists? or will they paint them as flip-floppers, because they are not the same thing and if he goes after ryan and say, you are an extremist and after romney and say you don't know what you think and those things are

mutually exclusive. >> chris: the bottom line and you hinted at it is, does it really matter? as entertaining as it may be, do people vote based on what the vice presidential candidates say and i think we all agree that most -- the most one-sided debate as lloyd bentsen and dan quayle and, brit hume you were on the podium, that night. and -- rather, the panel, and, that was the one, we are seeing the moment, where bentsen says to dan quayle, you are no jack kennedy and, you hear the roar from the crowd but he was running with dukakis and we didn't end up with him. >> i remember after the debate was over i asked the question of dan quayle, if something happened to the president, god forbid what would be the first thing you'd do and he fumbled the question and, lloyd bentsen had a smooth answer and i asked the same question again, because i thought, he had a chance to think about it while dan quayle fumbled and give him another crack at it to be fair, right?

and he fumbled it again and, tom brokaw asked a third time and he gave the answer mentioning jack kennedy and left the opening for him to say that. what i'm saying is, i thought at the time, man, that will turn it into a rout and will be the sound bite that plays forever, this is a bad night for the ticket. the g.o.p. ticket. and i went downstairs afterwards into the press room and i saw david broder with the "washington post," a fair minded reporter and i said what do you think. >> and he said there might be a marginal effect from this, but i don't think it will make much difference and in the end it didn't make any noticeable difference in the outcome of the election. >> chris: 15 seconds, kirsten, does it matter. >> unless something stupid, dramatic happens, in terms of, let's say paul ryan announced, something -- a new policy or something. you know? and in that way it would matter. but, otherwise, i don't think so. >> chris: thank you, panel. see you next weak. don't forget to check out

panel-plus, where we pick up with the discussion on our web site, foxnewssunday.com and we'll post the video before noon eastern time and follow us on twitter, @fox news sunday. up next, we go on the trail. copd includes chronic bronchitis and emphysema. spiriva helps control my copd symptoms by keeping my airways open for 24 hours. plus, it reduces copd flare-ups. spiriva is the only once-daily inhaled copd maintenance treatment that does both. spiriva handihaler tiotropium bromide inhalation powder does not replace fast-acting inhalers for sudden symptoms. tell your doctor if you have kidney problems, glaucoma, trouble urinating, or an enlarged prostate. these may worsen with spiriva. discuss all medicines you take, even eye drops. stop taking spiriva and seek immediate medical help if your breathing suddenly worsens, your throat or tongue swells, you get hives, vision changes or eye pain, or problems passing urine. other side effects include dry mouth and constipation.

nothing can reverse copd. spiriva helps me breathe better. (blowing sound) ask your doctor about spiriva. there's natural gas under my town. it's a game changer. ♪ it means cleaner, cheaper american-made energy. but we've got to be careful how we get it. design the wells to be safe. thousands of jobs. use the most advanced technology to protect our water. billions in the economy. at chevron, if we can't do it right, we won't do it at all. we've got to think long term. we've got to think long term. ♪ >> chris: it was the biggest week yet in the campaign with the first presidential debate, and, surprising new jobs numbers. and, you could feel the new intensity on the trail. ♪ >> welcome, president obama, and

governor romney... [applause]. >> go toness co nescongress and >> president barack obama: we are putting it before congress, right now... >> upper president four years. you have been president four years and said you would cut the deficit in half and it is fours years later and we have trillion dollar deficits. >> the president, you could see in the body language, he was so uncomfortable talking about the economy. >> mitt romney proved that he is going to stay and do anything to become president. fact checkers are having a good day, today. >> did you listen to governor romney last night? they discovered the middle class! my god, there it is! >> no coincidence... >> mitt romney... >> we began with news the u.s. unemployment rate dropped to its lowest level in nearly four years. >> president barack obama: this morning, we found out that the unemployment rate has fallen to

its lowest level since i took office. >> if the same share of people were participating in the workforce, today, as on the day the president got elected, our unemployment rate would be around 11%. >> president barack obama: today's news certainly is not an excuse to try to talk down the economy. to score a few political points. >> find to have someone elected president who has a plan and will create 12 million jobs and rising incomes. >> that is a serious statement... [cheers and applause]. >> chris: and there will be a lot more fireworks, in these final 30 days, of the campaign. now, a program note: be sure to tune into this fox station an fox news channel for full coverage of this week's vice presidential debate. that is thursday night, at 9:00 p.m and that's it for today. have a great week. and we'll see you next foz sunday. ♪ fox news sunday. ♪

bla have you heard of the new dialing procedure for the 408 and 669 area codes? no, what is it? starting october 20, 2012, if you have a 408 or 669 number, you'll need to dial 1 plus the area code plus the phone number for all calls. o.k., but what if i have an 408 number